Episode Transcript
Speaker 2 00:00:26 Hey, hey, hey, good people. It's your girl for drinking mcclar easily. And I am back again with another episode of Bam, bam, bampa. The people are blunt. Um, before we get into it, as you all can see, I am here with two, uh, with two guests today. This conversation is gonna be spicy. It is one that I am so ready to have, um, and I'm not gonna give any lead-ins. So before I allow these beautiful women to introduce theirselves, let me just say this. You all know that we are on all the platforms. So check out the People's ecosystem on YouTube, Spotify, apple and Prime, please, like, subscribe, um, do all of those good things that let us know that you are here, you are tuned in and you are appreciating. And four, news about what the ecosystem is doing, what all of the, the people of the ecosystem are doing for merge and for products if you are in states that are fully regulated.
Speaker 2 00:01:24 Um, and also if you have CBD needs, because that has no limitations, please check out the website, the peoples ecosystem.com. And without further ado, oh, and one more thing. Yes, see my earrings. See, I know that, that's one of my things. My earrings. So these are, um, from found objects. So this is a company that is owned by a black woman. Um, I met her, or at least I met someone who had on a pair of her earrings in Chicago, but maybe she's from Philly. Anyway, um, I love her love work. These are leather, they're lightweight, they don't weigh down. And, um, y'all know that earrings are one of my, one of my things. So without further ado, I have two, as I said, amazing ladies with me today. We're gonna get into it cuz this is about women, this is about our care, our wellness. And so without further ado, ladies, please introduce yourselves. I'm gonna start with Pam. Pam, please. Uh, tell us who you are, a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3 00:02:27 Hey, um, so I'm Pam Miles. I'm the founder and c e o of APO Care. And we actually were part of the People's Ecosystem First Accelerator. So I wanna say thank you for that because that really gave us, uh, the impetus for going on to some other new and exciting things. We just participated in the, um, fem tech lab accelerator in London. Um, so Dr. Cindy or is here with me and she's our director of science. So what we do is we test products, including those that are cannabis based on the vaginal microbiome to make sure that they are, um, safe and non-toxic to the vaginal microbiota. So that's what we're doing. We started, I started in my kitchen. Wait
Speaker 2 00:03:11 A minute. Hold, hold on, hold on. Cause we gonna get into that. Okay. I remember meeting you for the, uh, for the accelerator program, and I remember you telling that story and I said, where is Pam at? And who the hell are these neighbors? <laugh>? So before we dig into how you got into this, Cindy, please, um, introduce yourself and then we're gonna jump right in.
Speaker 4 00:03:36 Okay. Well, I'm Cindy Orser and I'm a PhD scientist. And I have been actively engaged in applied science, I'll call it in biotechnology, uh, for the last 30 years, um, mainly in diagnostics. And about 10 years ago, I got a call from a head hunter who asked me if I had any interest in building out a cannabis testing lab for a public company in Las Vegas, <laugh>. And I thought at the time I was running my own, uh, diagnostic lab in Boulder, Colorado. And I had definitely been watching the cannabis industry and wondering what I had to contribute. And so, yes, obviously, um, jumping into, uh, diagnostic, uh, analytical testing of cannabis flour and cannabis products made sense. So since that time I've been involved in building out two testing labs, uh, dig path in Las Vegas and Clip Labs in San Diego. And I have become a consumer advocate because there's so much about, uh, this plant and how it's grown, how it's tested, the variation in regulations at the state level.
Speaker 4 00:04:58 All of course under the heavy thumb of being federally illegal. Um, and in the last couple of years I had the good fortune to meet Pam and understand the crusade she was on, which was slightly different. I had been testing the flower and the products, uh, for their safety profile. Um, but Pam wanted to take it a step further and ask how do these products impact, uh, the microbiome of the vagina and what is that impact for women? And since that time, I've been helping Pam advance her cause and met even more wonderful and, uh, interesting people along the way.
Speaker 2 00:05:48 So I'm so happy that y'all met each other. Um, cause this is no, this is so necessary. You know, women, um, are usually, and things that are centered around us being the focal point are usually at the bottom of the totem pole, you know, in terms of the priority, in terms of what gets the attention. Yeah. Um, and so that's why for me, you know, this is like mind blowing. Love it. And I think it's so necessary, right. And we see women's rights, um, being attacked left and right. Um, and so, you know, there are a lot of people making decisions around what's good for us and or not making decisions Yeah. That don't look like us. Right? Right. It's a lot of men in power positions that are deciding things that have to do with us. Um, that's very concerning. So I wanna dig into the work specifically, but let's just kind of start at the beginning because Pam, when I met you, you were telling this story about how you were doing some things in your kitchen and you had neighbors who were, um, you know, basically being test subjects. Like, they were just like, all right, I'll try it, I'll let you know. And said, what kind of damn neighbors
Speaker 3 00:07:11 <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:07:12 We're talking about, you know, vulvas, we're talking about our vaginal area. I'm like, who is just trying stuff? Like what is going on here? But, um, but tell us that story of like, what even got you interested in experiencing with this?
Speaker 3 00:07:30 Okay, so 2016, I live in, I live in Massachusetts and, uh, adult use was, uh, was legalized, right? And I had been watching, um, because pelvic pain has been an issue for me. And I had been watching the genesis of some of the cannabinoid based products that were coming out in other states. So all of a sudden we found out that we could actually grow our own and we could make our own products. So that's what we did. I mean, I grew plants in my backyard and I live in a very conservative, well, I did it at that time in a very conservative community. I don't live there anymore. Um, and I remember my husband saying, oh, what are you doing? Nope. Like, every time somebody comes over, put those away. Just put that somewhere, don't, I'll let anybody see it. Yeah. So then we started to do, you know, the research, the folklore, the medicine that's been out there for a really long time.
Speaker 3 00:08:20 So I started to experiment with different types of remedies, like for arthritis. My first ones were for skincare. And actually Dr. Orser has a great cream that she makes. Um, and, and it works. Mine was not as good. Um, <laugh>. So, so, um, but then because pelvic pain, so we started, so I started formulating suppositories in my kitchen and I have a younger, uh, adult daughters mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I wanted to give them to their friends and to some of my friends that are kind of perimenopausal, they were starting to be postmenopausal and we're looking at all these new remedies. But I couldn't find any scientific data, like, you know, cuz I've talked about this to show that, um, they were gonna be safe. Like we know the folklore was there, the herbal medicine that they work. But having suffered a pelvic infection myself, when I was younger and I had, uh, secondary infertility, I was afraid I didn't wanna give anybody an infection.
Speaker 3 00:09:15 Right? Yeah. Um, so I brought all my stuff, you know, this is, this is back in the beginning. So I would bring my stuff to the labs, the cannabis testing labs in Massachusetts that just started, they were just starting to test. So they were happy to bring in product from people that were home growers and test their products. So that's how I started. Okay. And then I found these great women cannabis testing scientists that said, well, yeah, we can take it a step further. We can develop some from some real tests for you to show you whether or not these products are gonna be at least tolerated by the vaginal microbiome. So that's how we started. And
Speaker 2 00:09:50 When you heard all this, yo know, cuz y'all met and, and I listened to an interview, so y'all met at a conference, right? Okay. So you meet at the conference and Pam comes up to you or however y'all, uh, first, you know, engage and she's telling you this story, right? The inception story. What was the first thing that came to your mind?
Speaker 4 00:10:14 Well, you know, I'm, I'm not your typical scientist in that, you know, for me what makes science interesting is r and d. So for me it was like, yeah, of course we can do that. Cuz she was basically saying, would you be able to create these assays? And it's like, yeah, yes, and we should and, and let's do that. So I I was very enthusiastic and, um, you know, inspired that this non-scientist had taken this upon herself to bring to the forefront. And I tell you, it hasn't been easy, um, as Pam can tell you. Uh, but, but we know it's the right thing to do. And every woman we've talked to totally agrees with us. It's just getting the right people to the table to help fund the effort. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:11:12 And like frederica, we know, so it's not just ca like not just cannabis products, but we learned, which is why, and I've sent you some of this, you know, we've, we've had conversations about this that most of these products that are on the market, unless it's a lubricant or a tampon, they're not tested or regulated. Right? So that is the thing that blows my mind. Like here I am thinking, oh, cannabis is a new, new thing that people are starting to, not new, but some new to some people right. In, in newly legalized states. And that product isn't tested, but whoa, all the stuff that you go up and down the aisle at Walgreens is not tested.
Speaker 2 00:11:48 So, so a a couple of things just to kind of create a foundation here, because what we're talking about is women's wellness, women's care. So when you're thinking about, you know, your menstrual cycle, you're thinking about all of these ads on TV and things that would have women to believe you're supposed to walk around smelling like damn roses, right? Um, we never have these real conversations in terms of our vaginal discharge and you know, how what you eat can impact your smell and your pheromones and your pH balance and all of that. But there are tons of material out there, tons of tons of product out there that are specifically targeting us, that are targeting women in terms of how we're supposed to smell or how we're supposed to manage things that we go through on a regular basis. And so it blew my mind, um, to know that the majority of this stuff is not tested. Yep.
Speaker 4 00:12:54 Right. And, you know, there's such strong parallels to, for example, new pesticides coming on the market or new chemicals that get added to products like what we're hearing about all the P F A S now, um, and the unbelievable detrimental chronic impact that's going to cause. And the attitude is, well, let's just try it and see what happens. Right? It's just like a big experiment with no controls. It's just so the whole population. So in this case, you know, well, you know, it's probably okay, let's go ahead and put it in there and see what happens. And it has to be a class action lawsuit before you get the attention of the manufacturers of these products that have had a dramatic impact on women's health.
Speaker 2 00:13:48 Okay. It's, it's, it's, I wanna be surprised about it, but I'm not, you know what I'm saying? But it's very, it's very sad. So when you're talking about the road that, you know, you two are traveling and trying to do this work, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and we talk about some of the roadblocks. So we know cannabis being a schedule one, um, is huge, right? It being federally illegal is huge. Um, but we know that there's money out there and we know that there's other research being done. We know, um, that Biden, you know, at the end of of 22, um, finally signed some additional research language into, into law. So when you're talking about the roadblocks, are people just people with the money not interested in funding it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is it an issue in terms of, you know, getting product? Is it trying to make product? Is it testing existing things? Like, walk me through kind of how, how this is, is working out.
Speaker 4 00:14:49 So first of all, I mean that,
Speaker 3 00:14:50 That legislation though has just changed to expand cannabis research. I mean, and Cindy, you can weigh in here too when I, when I missed the cues, but it, there's still, it's still gonna be difficult to do. It's, it's, this is a reason that, that I personally started looking at cannabis testing labs and we, we tried to fill philanthropic route where, where we're looking at, you know, major medical institutions that do r and d and we couldn't get some of these IRBs through their, um, you know, their institutions because cannabis is still federally illegal. So people that are taking federal money don't wanna touch the product. And we have a great, um, collaborator at Baylor University down there. They're in, uh, Houston, Texas, Dr. Katie Patrick, who's helped us out with a lot of our studies with C B D, but, but she can't handle the thc.
Speaker 3 00:15:36 So, um, so, but, but the cannabis testing labs, you know, that we've worked with, were able to do that. So some of the stumbling barks are number one, that it's still, even though we are moving towards better ability to do the testing, we still are kind of not getting it all done as, as rapidly as we would like to see. And yet these products are allowed to be sold on the market. The other problem that happens is because there's no regulation and you make a product and you put it on a market and you're, and you, and you think you're doing the right thing, right? You don't know that you're not doing something because nothing else is tested. That could be harmful going to people and saying, we'd like to test your product. Some people say, well, what happens if there's something wrong with it? <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:16:18 Do I have to reformulate it? Right? And we've talked to some great people and, and that's one of my concerns is because there's no regulation and requires testing, there are products on the market that maybe shouldn't be on the market, but they're there. And it's also expensive. So if you are an upstart company and you're trying to make it in the new cannabis industry, and all of a sudden we say to you, well, it's gonna cost you, you know, a few thousand dollars to test your product. You're saying, well, I could mar I could spend that money on marketing, or I could spend that money on testing and the testing's not required. So why would I do that? Cuz my, my competitors aren't doing that. So that's where some of the roadblocks are coming in. And we've, we've talked to some, like I said, some really great people in the industry that, that would love to test. But remember, every time you test a batch, Cindy, what is it like seven 50 in California now? So every time you're bringing around that, you're bringing your product to market, you've gotta test it just for the cannabis testing regs and then throw in this extra testing on top, it can get expensive. So that's where, I mean, and I feel for people, you know, that's part of it. Like they, they wanna do the right thing, but they can't afford to.
Speaker 2 00:17:31 Okay. So two things. First of all, Cindy, when this testing is taking place, um, and I know this is something that like you've been intimately involved in. What are you looking for?
Speaker 4 00:17:45 We're looking at the impact of these different formulated products and we're, we're, we look at both finished product, those having individual cannabinoids or whole plan extract, but we also look at the active ingredient if it is a cannabinoid, if we're able to get ahold of that. So we're looking at whether or not either these products or the actives impact the ability of the key lactobacilli species that are associated with a healthy vagina. If these products impact the ability of those microbes to grow. Because there are a lot of reports, spurious reports, conflicting reports in scientific journals about, uh, whether or not cannabinoids have antimicrobial activity. We know certain terpenes have them. And we have certainly shown now that the actual way the CBD is extracted, whether or not it's soluble, whether or not it has other plant secondary metabolites in the extract, it affects whether or not it impacts these lactobacilli species. And we're also looking at deleterious organisms, so candida yeast, um, and moving into looking at staph and strep B.
Speaker 2 00:19:17 Okay.
Speaker 3 00:19:18 Yeah. Because personally I think that there's a lot of therapeutics there that are, that, you know, with, with cannabis and we wanna make sure that they're, they're used safely. But I do think that there's a pathway for novel therapeutics for pain relief and remediation of certain, uh, pathogenic infections.
Speaker 2 00:19:35 No, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that, um, body pH, how we are maintaining it and the fact that we do have good bacteria is not something, um, and that bacteria is necessary, is not something, I mean, I grew up with women around me, um, dipshit using Oh
Speaker 3 00:19:56 No. Oh, that's so bad. So bad.
Speaker 2 00:19:59 Exactly right. But I think that that goes to, um, that goes to the advertising of, you know, how we're supposed to smell what we're supposed to do, how we take care of ourselves. So, okay, so in this testing, you know, what are some of the things that you all have found and in your efforts of, you know, the crusade around, um, making this a priority, right? Um, and, and whether it's even helping to, to fund so that these companies, especially these small companies, don't have to decide between compliance over here or doing something that's mandated versus something that's not. Um, what do those efforts look like?
Speaker 3 00:20:49 So one of the things that we're trying to do is develop what we call a trusted and tested database. Okay? So every time we test a product, we have a list of the ingredients that are in it. And we're doing some, you know, old fashioned, uh, process of elimination of what, what compounds we think are the most effective, uh, at, at or I should say toxic towards the lactobacillus and a lot of the stuff that's found, and like you said, douches and washes. So we think that those are the, those are the most deleterious. And what we're hoping is that some of these big manufacturers, um, not so much in the cannabis side, but maybe in the consumer package, good side are gonna start to take notice. And they're gonna remove, they're gonna help us do some of that testing or they might even take it on themselves.
Speaker 3 00:21:34 I mean, hey, that's one of the things that we're, we're, we would be really excited if somebody else even even started doing a testing platform that could show what ingredients were safe and effective because we're small and we're doing the best that we can with the limited resources that we have. Um, but that is the biggest thing. And I, I can tell you right now, I picked up a package the other day of a, of a douche in a grocery store and there's a warning label on it. I never knew that. So there's a warning label on that product. And we also know from working with some of our, um, consumer advocacy advocacy groups, women's voices for the earth and black women for wellness, that a lot of these products are used off-label. So like they say that they're for external use, yes. But people use them internally.
Speaker 3 00:22:19 And then we also don't know, um, there's a, a microbiome that's part of the Volvo, right? And we're talking about the internal, we're talking about what the vaginal microbiome is. But there's a hole. People say, well, it doesn't matter if it kills lactobacillus, cuz that's an internal microbiota. And you talk to some of the scientists now and they're saying, well, that's not necessarily true. There's a symbiotic relationship between the external like microbiota that's in the Volvo and the vaginal microbiota. So all that science is new and we need to make sure that all the products that we're using are not damaging that, um, natural microflora that we have that keeps us healthy.
Speaker 2 00:23:03 So I could see that because you, you're looking at like the outside being the first line of defense
Speaker 3 00:23:10 Right?
Speaker 2 00:23:11 Or something is coming in. So I can, I, I definitely like, that makes sense to me. Um, that that also would be something that should be taken into consideration. Okay. So look, um, we're just gonna be real about it. We know we're trying to get VC capital. Um, it's not easy. We know everything that is focused on women, right? Um, is not easy. Nope. Um, and I mean, right about this time there's like a dry up, right? Like there's a shortage because of some of the back and forth and inactivity at the federal level. Like everyone's trying to figure out like how to, um, how to, how to place their bets, if you will. Right? And looking for that return, that roi, right? Like that return. And this, I mean, to me, this is sexy. It's like y'all, you would definitely wanna invest in this, but it may not seem that way.
Speaker 3 00:24:11 No. And I can give you an example. You know, we've talked to a lot of people, right? About, so, so people all, they listen to the story and they said about how are you gonna make money? So I'm not exactly, look, they, and that's one of the things is that we might not necessarily have to make money, we just wanna raise awareness right now. I mean, we have to keep the lights on. So we have, we charge for the services from what we call conscious companies that are bringing new product to market that have heard about the testing. And they know that if they can have a so-called toxic screen done on their product, that it might give them a little bit of a market differentiator when they go, right? So, but the, the, the play here I think is that, yeah, the cannabis industry right now VC is very difficult, but there are a lot of health and beauty side to this.
Speaker 3 00:24:59 Like I said, not all the products have cannabis that we're testing. So we, I think we've done a pretty good job, um, of isolating the cannabinoids ourselves and showing that, uh, water soluble, C, b D and water soluble T H c and some of these pure isolates don't seem to be deleterious at, at our level, the testing that we're doing to the vaginal microbiome. So, but let's look outside the cannabis industry cuz we've kind of done that precursor testing for the cannabis industry, but some of these other companies that do have deeper pockets Yeah. Um, that maybe they can jump in and, and, and help out, um, because that's where the money is, right?
Speaker 2 00:25:41 Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it's where the money is, but it's also where things are trending, right? Because we're in this space where we are normalizing all parts of the plant. So we're talking about hemp, we're talking about C B D, we're talking about, you know, t hc. But all aspects of the plant, um, are being normalized. And so you're seeing it in your drinks, you're seeing it in your, your care products. You know, you're seeing it, um, your topicals, your ingestibles, all of those things. It makes sense. So, so here's a question because like, I believe in people power, and when I think about, um, people power, I specifically think about women who are really the heads of households. Like when we're looking at purchases, when we're looking at like who's controlling what, um, not just for their selves, but for all under the roof, it's women, right?
Speaker 2 00:26:35 Like, we're the ones who are usually taking care of this. So two questions. One in the, the crusade of uplifting this, the importance of this, um, and hopefully getting it to a point where it is not optional. What can women do? What can we do? Or even those, those, those males who are allies, right? Then secondly, in terms of companies that you've already worked with, um, do we have a, I guess kind of a listing of like safe products? I remember, you know, my background is in labor, right? And so, you know, we had, we would have the union bug on things if, if it, if it was a flyer or whatever and it didn't have the bug, it was like, well, we're, well,
Speaker 3 00:27:22 I remember, I remember that Look for the union label that song. I remember that, right? Yeah. And, and, okay, so to answer both your questions, number one, we're starting to do that. We're developing what we're calling is like a, a tested seal, okay. Companies that wanna come to us and, and do the testing and put their seal on it. Um, there are some other companies I think that are moving in that direction as well. So I do believe that testing on the microbiome in all phases is going to start to be, I know there's one that's doing it with skin non-cannabis products. Um, so that's, that's a way to go ahead and say, Hey look, are these products tested? But also just to start looking, looking, we can't at this point say we've got that There are companies, we are working with some, but their products aren't on the market yet.
Speaker 3 00:28:05 So we can't divulge who they are. But you'll see soon when they come to market, hopefully they'll have our label that we've tested their product on it. Um, so we can't really say at this point that there are certain products out there that are safe. We gave a list of products that we have tested, like consumer report type. Okay. Like where we into a bunch of dispensaries in California. Cause that's where the clip testing lab was that we were using. Okay. And we pulled some of those off the market and those at the time were not, um, toxic to the lactobacillus. But that was at one point in time. And as Cindy says, you know, people change formulations. And so I am not comfortable saying that the products that we tested, you know, last summer Yes. Are a hundred percent safe. Cause I haven't seen any of the new formulations. What if the manufacturer changed from what we did? Because I know I have a lot of food allergies and I know that I have to read the label every time because manufacturers are continuously putting in new stuff. Yeah. So, so people can start to ask for their products to be tested or they can look for things that contain almost zero ingredients. You know, there's some companies out there that just put in cannabis and oil,
Speaker 2 00:29:18 Right.
Speaker 3 00:29:19 You know, uh, that's to me right now we tested, I can tell you we've tested mc t oil how many times Cindy? Like every single time. That's our control. So we are pretty, we're pretty safe with M C T oil. Um, we've tested, uh, coconut oil, but the problem is that there are some other, uh, you know, people in the gynecological community that would, would weigh on on both of, of those things. But I would say in terms of our testing, the M C T oil seems to be fine if that's what people are using. And then the isolates Yeah. Know that you gotta be, but as Cindy was saying, you know, we've tested some stuff, we just don't know what we've tried to isolate. Like Cindy, what? C B G C B D T H C and now we we're may look at some of the other minor cannabinoids, um,
Speaker 4 00:30:06 C bbc
Speaker 3 00:30:08 Cbc. So, so we can say if people are manufacturing, like if you're gonna go out people, you guys are gonna go out and you're gonna make a product, do it with isolate if it's for vaginal health, right. Do it with an isolate because then you know that it doesn't have something that we haven't tested in it. And, you know, ba a basic oil and I, I can't, I'm not attesting to the safety, but I'm saying, Hey, that to me would be the, the easiest way to do things. Stay away from all fragrances. Right? Because we know from the people that aren't in the cannabis industry that fragrances are really bad. We shouldn't be using fragrant products in our intimate spaces.
Speaker 2 00:30:48 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It, you know, it, um, it really aggravates me, uh, even to see, you know, feminine products that have this, excuse me, floral sent to him. Yep. It's like, well why is this even necessary?
Speaker 3 00:31:06 Right?
Speaker 2 00:31:07 Like, I'm on my cycle, it's okay. Yep. I don't need to spike flowers. I actually wanna know if it's time to change. Like why are we masking this like, right. Excuse me, is this that we're not supposed to Right. If we're not in this pretty box
Speaker 3 00:31:26 Right,
Speaker 2 00:31:28 Then we are not supposed to fully exist.
Speaker 3 00:31:31 Right?
Speaker 4 00:31:32 Right. Well, you know, I don't remember what culture it is, but they actually make the women go sit in a cave when they're menstruating. They can't even be around the family because it's like not clean or not safe to be around them. So yeah, I think that's one, listen, there's a huge, uh, public education component to what we're doing. Yes. Right. Because even though the discussion around microbiomes, the relevancy of the lactobacilli species in the vagina for their ability to maintain a low pH, keep out invader bacteria and viruses, we've known that since the eighties. <laugh>, we are now 40 years later, you know, still trying to get that message out there. And I think it's, there's more and more popular articles about the influence of microbiomes. Like I think most people now understand there's a gut microbiome that can influence dramatically influence your health and your mental health.
Speaker 4 00:32:47 And there are microbiomes of tumors and we know that the mi the bacteria in those tumors help the cancer cells do what they're doing. They're nasty business of taking over the body. So big educational component, but there's also a continuum of what's going on in the vagina. What happens with the man's penis. We need to do a correlation. What happens to the microbiome of the penis when the woman's healthy microbiome is disrupted? Well, we know for one thing, there's a much higher likelihood that they're gonna get h i v from their partner because H I V and H P V, both of those viruses are more readily able to colonize vaginal tissue if the lactobacilli are no longer present. I mean, that's just one example. What if we could show that disruption of the healthy microbiome affects a woman's libido? Do you think men would care then, or,
Speaker 3 00:33:55 Well see, I think you just hit the nail on the head because you just talked about a penis. So now all the funding comes, you know, that is the whole thing. Okay. So, so it's gonna affect men. Woo. Billions. Oh, there's a billion. Right. And you know, we, we just actually saw that the feedback here, I dunno why. Yeah, I don't, yeah, they're doing a, a male feedback. Um, I mean a male fe I mean, they're doing a male fertility test and it's a great concept, right? It's a male, it's in in the uk, but it's gonna be a male in sperm test so that you don't have to go, uh, you know, guys don't have to go to a clinic to test their sperm for fertility. And everybody's jumping on the bandwagon to fund that because why? Well, it's g it's gonna be good for, for wi for people who wanna have a, a, a woman that wants to have a baby with a man that is going to be okay great for her in the future because she'll have to do less invasive procedures.
Speaker 3 00:34:57 They can test the man first. Right. But on the other hand, once again, it's there. That's where, and, and you know, the article that I read today about how Cindy and I have talked about this too, that there's, the F D A I know is concerned about cannabis and male fertility, the effect of cannabis on male fertility. But I say, and this is where sometimes I disagree with some of my fellow scientists in the room, that not all women want to reproduce. Hello? And, and, uh, and should the science be held back because, oh, it might do something bad for a man's sperm that regenerates every three months, but a woman who has endometriosis that is in great pain, we're gonna stop looking at the science and stop developing new products for these women because oops. Might hurt a guy. I don't think so,
Speaker 2 00:35:51 Pam, don't get me started. Okay. Uh, because I am actually pregnant right now.
Speaker 3 00:35:58 Well, congratulations. Wow,
Speaker 2 00:36:00 Thank you. Um, but I also have a, a toddler, hence this little cough I have because, you know, once kids go to school, right? <inaudible> magnets, and it literally burns my bottom hole to know that like no one has prioritized medicine for pregnant women. So we're pregnant and like, you know, if we already have kids, we're caring for them and you know, our nutrients are being depleted because like, oh, I'm actually growing something. And you mean to tell me that like, if I get a common cold, there's like nothing zero that there's nothing I can do. God forbid I get the flu, God forbid I get covid now, right? And there's nothing that I can take, like, there's nothing that you can do for me, because again, we are not the priority. So you're absolutely right. If you start attaching men to this and, and what's gonna be more enjoyable for them or what, you know, why this is safe, why this should be important, how they're associated with it. Well, unfortunately that's where a lot of the dollars are. And so that's, that's where the concern is gonna be. That's where the concern is gonna be. I mean, and the, and the reality is our health is better. Our, us being healthy women, being healthy is better for everyone,
Speaker 3 00:37:25 Right?
Speaker 2 00:37:26 It's better for everyone because we are taking care of everyone, you know, and we do bring forth life and, and you know, regardless of what your sexual preference is. Um, but we are the, we are the keepers of humanity. And so if we're healthy, then, then life is better. I'll go on the tangent, but let me, Cindy, I wanna go to you real quick because in talking about the science and these, you know, kind of like this, the way your mind explodes with, well, what if we can attach it to this, or what about this or what about that? So when you got into, um, looking at this in terms of women's wellness, we often kind of center around, um, our cycles. But I know that you do work and I know that there's interests in the stages of menopause, um, in this like full life cycle in scope of women. So can you talk about that a little bit? Because some of this, like, I wasn't aware of, like I've been around women who were in menopause, but I didn't even know like there were these other stages and you know, like Right. There's a continuum there.
Speaker 4 00:38:40 Right? Right. Well, you know, I, I'm not an MD <laugh>, I'm certainly not a gynecologist, so I can't, uh, talk specifically about the different stages. But what I can share with you is since the very beginning, um, I have been concerned with two things. One is bioavailability of these products and the actives, whether it's C B D T H C or, or or no cannabinoid, no active, really <laugh> except a deodorant. Um, I've been very concerned about the bioavailability, how much of it actually crosses the epithelial lining in the vagina and also availability to the microorganisms that have colonized that epithelial lining. And the second thing is how do these cannabinoids, um, impact the hormone levels? Because, and the reason I say that is there was a very, uh, forward thinking, very well done scientific publication that first came out like a year and a half ago.
Speaker 4 00:40:00 It was formally peer reviewed, published, uh, in February by a group here in Colorado called Biomics, a small company in collaboration with the university. Colorado did this very sophisticated study that was funded by darpa, which is the advanced arm of funding for the military. Okay. Um, and I have had funding from them before. And they found that C B D intercalates into the membrane of cells. And no one has actually understood how C B D can have so many pleotropic effects on the human body, you know, from pain relief to interrupting, uh, seizures and epileptic patients. Um, and this study now tells us how that works because when it inserts itself into the membrane, all those other spanning proteins and phospho lipids get rearranged and kind of pushed around. And then the C B D pulls itself internally into the cell along with a lot of cholesterol, cuz the membrane has a high component of cholesterol.
Speaker 4 00:41:20 And the impact of that is it d disrupts cholesterol homeostasis. And the reason why that's important and why I bring it up in relation to hormones is cholesterol is the backbone chemical for the sex hormones for progesterone, estrogen, and testosterone. So if cholesterol metabolism is screwed up, and a lot of this C B D is getting inside the epithelial cells that line the vagina and their signaling in regard to synthesis of progesterone and estrogen, is there the possibility that long-term use or even uh, acute exposure to C B D at high doses, because some of these products actually have very high doses, um, is impacting a woman's normal hormonal cycle. And we don't know that. Right? And so just like putting P F A S in everybody's frying pan <laugh> was like this big experiment. Well, we have another big experiment going on, which is all these women who are putting C B D products up their vagina, are they at risk of disrupting their own normal hormonal cycle? And and we don't know.
Speaker 3 00:42:46 We don't know. Right. Exactly. And, and yep. Exactly. And that's what we need to find out.
Speaker 2 00:42:51 And have, have there been any studies at any level, um, that you two are aware of, even even on, um, I guess an anecdotal level of like women just keeping diaries and like self-monitoring of, hey, I'm using this and this is home people.
Speaker 4 00:43:16 I think there are several of those types of studies underway. I know the, some of the tampon companies, the new tampon, new new era tampons are are doing those kind of anecdotal, um, studies with patients
Speaker 3 00:43:35 Or you I I know. Yeah. And Dr. Gruber's study on menopause and cannabis Yes. That was published in the North American Journal of Medicine, uh, menopause Society, NAMS in the fall. She looked at, um, patients can, medical cannabis patients in the state of Massachusetts that were using cannabis for relief of menopausal symptoms. Now, a lot of that did not have to do with, uh, vaginally inserted cannabis. Right. Um, you know, but so, but that's, and then we've talked to a lot of manufacturers. We're talking about people that are using, that are making products that are legal to sell. And they have a lot of anecdotal information that women are, are, they get relief from using their products. Like for instance, we've heard from Canadian manufacturers that women that are using these products prior to i u d insertion and removal are experiencing less pain. Um, so there are, there are companies that would like to do these studies and they've even approached us to help them do the studies.
Speaker 3 00:44:37 But everything comes down to money, the cost. And, you know, and, and, and that's why I'm saying like, there's some conscious companies out there that say, Hey, yeah, we, we wanna know, like we, we want to do this, but everybody needs money. And when you look at how much it costs to fund these studies, it's very expensive. So we keep exploring different ways of trying to get things done with like a consortium of, um, companies that are manufacturing or like I said, maybe even something outside the cannabis industry, um, where we're, where they'll help us with our, um, tested and trusted database of, of compounds that can be used. But think is right. We need more research. We need more research. And even though the new research bill was passed, it's still gonna be hard to get the dollars and to get the, even the cannabis to do the research. Right. Because how many, um, you're still gonna have to get the cannabis. Uh, the way I understand it, and you guys can correct me when I'm wrong, you're still gonna have to get the cannabis from one of the federally agreed upon labs. And I think right now how many have they, um, growers, how many have they sanctioned? Is it like four?
Speaker 2 00:45:46 I think it's four or five. Cause I know for a while there was just ole miss and they've expanded that, but I think it's still limited, right? And then you're, then you get into the issue of well, shipping across states that may not,
Speaker 3 00:46:01 Right? You can't. So,
Speaker 2 00:46:03 Because unless you're actually there, right? Uh, in one of the states that now have a, um, a gross site or facility that is accepted, um, that has that stamp of approval, then how do you actually get the product? Um, Sydnee I wanna go back to you though, because the two areas that you pointed out, um, of a focal for you in terms of, um, in terms of the microbiome, but also in terms of our hormones, I really wanna kind of like for education for the audience to dig into the importance of this, right? Because when we're thinking about menopause, you're thinking about, uh, a woman's libido. Um, there are so many things that hormones impact daily, um, that, you know, now me as a mother, I am more, I guess I can say sensitive to it, um, and more in tune with it. But I don't think it's something that's often discussed. Like usually when people are talking about their hormones, it's like, oh, well, is that time in a month? Like, she's crazy or, you know, it's, it's, it's a little more simplistic. But if you don't mind, if you can really like tap into why our hormonal imbalance or hormonal health is so important.
Speaker 4 00:47:20 Well, we, you know, we are already exposed to so many chemicals that are identified as being endocrine disruptors. And we all witness that young girls and now young boys also, they are maturing <laugh> at much younger ages. And, you know, okay. I wonder why that's happening. Well, it's probably because there are so many of these chemicals that are literally in the air, in our water, in our food, and well, a lot of these chemicals are also in cannabis flour. I mean, I just did a very large comparative study with, um, my colleagues at Arizona State University on looking at the pesticide residue from, uh, flower and extracts in Southern California and comparing the action or the tolerance levels in California versus other states. And just thinking about what is the impact of that, especially, you know, for, for individuals, medical marijuana patients who are taking these products because they have some neurological condition.
Speaker 4 00:48:50 Um, and, and here they're being exposed to higher concentrations of certain pesticides, um, that we know, uh, can impact their health in other ways. I mean, and so you throw in the hormone impact and it doesn't have to just be from exposure in your vagina. I mean, if you're drinking, uh, CBD din infused water or, or, you know, I use CBD b D cream. I mean the, the level of our homo hormones are, it's such a subtle fine tuning. And you know, one of the interesting things with women in menopause is when their estrogen levels drop, they lose a control of the, their thermostat in their body because it's estrogen in the hypothalamus gland that's actually fine tuning that. And when the estrogen is, is is missing to help with that, then your body is, you know, gets hot and gets cold and you have this wacko. I mean, that's just one little example. Um, so does C B D impact that? Well, we don't know because we haven't had the luxury of the federal government funding basic research. Yes. Right. Which is the normal process, particularly since C B D is a prescription drug, um, in this country. And yet we have CD and thousands of other products that require, as Pam always says, under researched. Um, and, um, and yet they, they're on your sh on the shelf and your local, uh, drugstore or Safeway,
Speaker 2 00:50:48 You know, that's the thing that's, so it's so, um, I guess crazy is because when you see these products, there are assumptions that are made because we know we have an fda, a food and drug, uh, administration. And so if you see, see it at your CVS or your Walgreens, you're assuming that this is okay.
Speaker 4 00:51:14 Yeah, I know, right? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:51:17 Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4 00:51:19 Yeah. So it, you know, it comes back to, uh, public edu public education. I mean, the public needs to be better informed,
Speaker 3 00:51:26 Right? And, and that's exactly what, you know, we talk about this all the time, is that, you know, we still, there are a lot of products out there on the market that we, that carry warning labels or that we've, that has been researched, you know, and we know that that alcohol in high amounts is not good for us. We know that smoking cigarettes is not good for us. We know there's a lot of things out there that we know that su a lot of people say sugar, you know, the big gulp is not good for you, but we know we, and then you make an informed choice as a consumer, okay? So you have information and you're choosing. But with a lot of these products that are out there that, particularly in women's intimate care, they have not been tested. They're under-researched and under-regulated and under tested. So we don't make, we can't make those choices because we don't know, other than that warning label that I just saw on a summers East douche, I've never seen anything like that before. I was, I was shocked when I saw,
Speaker 4 00:52:19 What did the label say?
Speaker 3 00:52:21 It basically said that this could be, this could cause it could be implicated in infection, you know? So I wish I had it with me right now. I'd read it to you.
Speaker 4 00:52:29 Wow.
Speaker 3 00:52:30 I just picked it up and I, and I looked at it at the store and I said, I have never seen this. And it was not a warning label that they were required to put on, but it was something that they have gone out and done. So now that's my point is like, when you were saying earlier, Freda, but yet people are still buying that product, but are they looking at the label?
Speaker 2 00:52:48 Well, that's what I was about to say. I mean, when you think about some of these products, these have been staples, um, generational staples. Yes. Right? So like your grandmother, your great-grandmother, you know, your mother have used these things. And so for them to just kind of put something, you know, on the back of it without there being education around it, without there being any kind of discussion, um, people are not paying attention to that. It's, I mean, it's the same thing when you have a product that's a staple. Oh, if Hines is your ketchup, right, you always use, he's ketchup. Right? Right. <inaudible> Hines, you know, and you're not really paying attention to the label of that. And so I think that that kind of brings us back to, um, you know, both you and Cindy, Pam, we're talking about the huge component of education that needs to happen around this. So if we had, you know, a, a crystal ball or a genie, right? Where we had the ability to make some of the changes that would be necessary to allow this to progress in a, um, in an intentional way, what would be on your wishlist? Like if there were three things that needed to happen so that this kind of research could get the attention that it deserves, and also for the work that you two are doing, what, what do you need? What are the three things?
Speaker 4 00:54:24 Cindy, do you wanna take some of that question? Well, I, you know, I mean, for me, I would want to set up experiments looking at the bioavailability. So how does the form, if you have different formulations, save cannabinoids going from a, a, a full plant extract, broad plant extract to individual cannabinoids or with, or without terpenes looking at bioavailability, but also looking at dosing. So that's the other big Well, exactly. Big thing We don't know hardly anything about, you know, it's like people put a hundred milligrams in a tampon. It's like, how did you come up with that <laugh>? You know, just kind of draw it out of the air. Yes. And, you know, so dosing bioavailability, how, how the formulation informs those two topics. And then also doing a clinical trial with volunteers to look at how the use of these products do impact the normal hormonal cycling and the levels of hormones that we would measure in the blood. Those are super interesting and critical studies that need to happen.
Speaker 2 00:55:44 Um, Pam, before I go to you, I would just say, um, of those studies, I think the thing that I'm interested in being a black woman and understanding that, you know, there are things that genetically impact us differently. Um, what are some of the particulars with that? I would love for there to be studies that, you know, kind of siphon that out, or at least take that into consideration in terms
Speaker 4 00:56:12 Of Yes. So, so there are certain vaginal biotypes, I think there are like eight and black women's makeup of their microbiome is slightly different, say, than Caucasians or, or, um, Asian women or Hispanic women. So back to my interest on bioavailability and dosing, we can add that component, which is how does the microbiome makeup influence the bioavailability of these compounds and the dosing required for whatever the physiological outcome is desired? If it's pain relief, let's say pain relief, I mean, does it, do these bacteria influence that? You know, we don't know, right? I mean, it, it seems like a really simple thing and maybe yes, maybe no, but we don't know, right? Um, so that's what I would answer back to you in, in terms of the, these different biotypes that have been identified. And there are some individuals who believe there aren't biotypes, that every woman is unique, but, you know, if you look at the historical data, there are in fact to stay biotypes.
Speaker 2 00:57:37 Okay? Okay.
Speaker 4 00:57:39 And actually, the biotype most closely associated with African women, they're predisposed to h I v infection. I, I mean, it's nuts, right? So nobody can tell you that the vaginal microbiome is not, uh, important factor in a women's health. Right?
Speaker 2 00:58:02 And is that African women or African American women? No, and the reason why
Speaker 4 00:58:12 I know black, black African women living in Africa.
Speaker 2 00:58:16 Okay. Yeah. And I wanted to make that distinction because some of the work that I've done in the past in terms of maternal and infant mortality,
Speaker 3 00:58:25 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:58:26 That there's a huge difference between African American women. You know, basically between the time that you've spent in the s a, um, when we're looking at maternal health, when we're looking at birthing experiences, the longer that you have, um, experienced what they call weathering, right? So dealing with the macro microaggressions of our systems, um, and of our living that has a negative or has an increasingly negative impact on maternal and infant mortality. Excuse me.
Speaker 3 00:59:03 No, that, yeah. And that was another report that was just released, uh, almost today on that. I just read that today, another report on infant and maternal health and how we as a nation that has supposedly one of the best healthcare systems in the world, we have some of the poorest outcomes, especially for black women in maternal health, which is ridiculous. So in terms of, I can tell you the number one thing is money <laugh>. Cause that study that Syd wants to do is great, and she's designed it. And if we could just get the funding for that study, that would be amazing. But in until that happens, I think the consumer needs to be really aware. And one of the things, you know, that, that Cindy and I are looking at is in, in the, in the, aside from the cannabis industry, is that there's a lot of people, and Frederica, you and I have talked about this before, there's a lot of people that in this industry are making money mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 3 00:59:59 Okay, so there's revenue coming in, and are they, and are they doing it intention with the, with, with the, with good intentions all the time. And if they're making products that are designed for sexual health and intimacy, then they should be testing those products because that's important. Um, so that's what I would say is, you know, as an industry, I think we, we, we want the cannabis industry to be an industry that flourishes. And, um, but we also want it to, we wanna make sure that people are doing it intentionally and that they are making sure that the products are not gonna be toxic. Like, like Cindy said, you don't want Teflon, right? You don't want, like those pans. You don't want cannabis to be the next thing that people come up, or Johnson Johnson Baby powder, you know what I mean? You don't want that. We want, we want people to be able to use these products in a way that they can benefit from them. So let's make sure that they're clean and safe.
Speaker 2 01:00:55 So here's the elephant. When we're talking about this kind of stuff, what kind of price tag are we looking at? Like, if someone wants to watch this interview and say, excuse me, and to say, you know what? I would, I believe in this. I, I see the importance of this. Uh, maybe I don't have all the money, but maybe I wanna get a group together. You know? Um, what are we kind of looking at for these kind of studies to take place?
Speaker 3 01:01:28 Well, Cindy's study is a lot of money. You'd have to pay at a big group for that one <laugh>. Okay. But if you <laugh>, if you just wanted, I mean, that's, that's a, that's a multimillion dollar study, because anytime you're talking about using human subjects, you know, you're gonna have to go through an I R B process. It's a, it's a multi-year, probably very expensive. We've looked at some of these, these studies. We think we could do a small study at a major medical research institution for $150,000 with maybe 20 to 30 women. Okay? Then in terms of a product, if somebody came out and they wanted to test their product, we could do that between, for between a thousand and $2,000. We could, we could test a formulation that people are trying to bring to market. And what we like to say is, that may seem like a lot of money to a lot of people, it is. But for some of these big companies that are launching products in the intimate care space that are spending, we know what their budgets are, 90, a hundred, $250,000, close to a million on marketing. A thousand dollars is nothing. If you're gonna spend $2 million on your marketing and branding budget, right. And all your packaging and that. So that's where we're saying, Hey, that's a, that is a short spend to
Speaker 2 01:02:45 That's in the bucket. Yep. And we as women have to say, well, aren't we worth it? Yeah. Like how we demand,
Speaker 3 01:02:54 Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 01:02:55 That they do these sort of things that like, are we not worth an extra couple thousand dollars?
Speaker 3 01:03:01 Right. But, and I'm gonna tell you a story about a company that we had a discussion with, and I will not name them, but one of the things we said is, Hey, we've done preliminary testing of your product cuz we pulled it off the shelf and we tested it and it and it, and it didn't test all that great. And so we would like to maybe do a joint, maybe do a joint study. We, they, because they said, well that's, that can't be true. Our, our, our product's fine. And we said, well, okay, well let's do it together. We know that you have some funding because it's been public, right? So why don't we do that study together? And their report was their re their comment back to us was, well we don't have to do that and we have shareholders. And I said, okay, so you're spending, I didn't, you know, 2 million in a marketing budget to launch your product worldwide, but you are not gonna spend a thousand dollars to do a, we were even willing to match them to do a joint project with them and hey, and if it came out okay, great.
Speaker 3 01:03:56 Then you can say, you know what, the test you did that first time doesn't, we've changed the formulation or it just didn't work out right. But because that was their response. We have shareholders and this is expensive. That's sad. So honestly, Frederica, you know, there's an old commercial like, I'm worth it. Yeah. I, you know, that company was saying that you and me and Cindy and all these other women that they're marketing that product to, that we're not worth that to them.
Speaker 2 01:04:25 You know, I, I feel like we have to figure out a system where it is easy to note or easy to identify the companies that do feel that we're worth it.
Speaker 3 01:04:42 Right. I don't know how we're gonna do that.
Speaker 2 01:04:45 Be a standard like warning label. Right. I mean, because you know, I mean that's like list, like that's like looking at the list of ingredients. Like there aren't too many people who normally are going to do that. Right? Right. So what's the trick here? Like what's the bullet of making sure that we can uplift and identify the people who think we're worth it? And I think that that's, that's the piece right there.
Speaker 3 01:05:13 Right.
Speaker 2 01:05:14 Do you feel that we're worth it and do you know that you yourself are worth it?
Speaker 3 01:05:19 Right. Right. I, I agree with you and I do think that some of these companies, like you can look at the things on the back of the label sometimes, you know, they leaping bunny or be certified, they're trying right. Those are companies that are really trying, they're trying, they know they're being conscious in some way, shape or form that they're, they're doing the right thing. And I think we need to start to do that for microbiome testing for the skin and for the reproductive areas. And I think we, we'll get there, we'll get there. It's just gonna take some time and in the meantime people need to be aware. Just be aware.
Speaker 4 01:05:53 Yeah. Say I'm gonna have to jump off,
Speaker 2 01:05:58 I'm gonna actually wrap this up, but, okay. So in terms of things to look out for, again, let me just plug, um, APO Care, um, to stay in the know, to check out what's going on all social media platforms for the year of 23. Are there any, um, immediate exciting things like in the first quarter, um, that you'll be involved in? I mean, I know you were talking about the FinTech lab accelerator, um, so I'm not sure if there's any aftermath that comes from that, but should people have anything on their radar when it comes to the work that you all are doing?
Speaker 3 01:06:35 Yeah, I think we're gonna come out and you're gonna see our little stamp on some products pretty soon. Um, we're hoping that that happens in, in the first quarter of 2023. And we're gonna continue to test products and, and we will come out with, hopefully we are working with, um, some data scientists that are gonna help us to parse through some of the work that we've done already. And we'll be able to at least isolate some compounds that should not be in products and we'll make that known. So once we actually go through the next phase of testing those, we'll make that known to both manufacturers and to consumers that these are, these are com chemicals that you should look out for in these products.
Speaker 2 01:07:12 Well, Sydnee opinion, this has been amazing. I've learned so much. Um, I feel like we could have kept this conversation going on because I wanted, I wanted both of you to break down everything. Like why is this important, why is that important? And I think we need to know that, you know, we need to know the why. Right. Um, so I appreciate you ladies, the time that you've taken, um, with us, with the people are blind to educate our viewers. Please keep me informed on when those products, you know, when those bucks come out so that we can let people know. Cause I think that's really gonna be the difference. Education, but also just acknowledgement of this is what's okay. Right,
Speaker 4 01:07:56 Right, right. Yes.
Speaker 3 01:07:58 And let's hope we get all kinds of federal funding to do this research. Cuz that's what we really need. I mean, nobody can do this alone,
Speaker 4 01:08:04 Right. So Yes. So nice to meet you Fred Frederica and best of luck in your next birthing experience.
Speaker 2 01:08:13 Yes, it is. It is soon. End of April. End of April.
Speaker 4 01:08:17 Oh, that's awesome. I've gone through it four times myself while natural birth, so.
Speaker 2 01:08:24 Oh, so my, my first was a natural birth at home, uh, in the bedroom. We didn't make it to water because, um, I progressed very quickly. I was only in labor about four and a half hours. Wow. So life thinks that this one will just kind of sneeze out. But this is it. <laugh>. Yes. This is the grand closing here. We had the grand opening. Now this is the grand closing <laugh>. And so we will be two and done. We'll be two and done.
Speaker 4 01:08:49 All right. Well listen, happy holidays you guys.
Speaker 2 01:08:53 Thank you.
Speaker 4 01:08:55 And the best to everybody at the peoples. Great. Great. Yes, yes. Thank you for what you do. Yes,
Speaker 2 01:09:01 Thank
Speaker 4 01:09:02 You. Very important. Thank you. We're we're all on a crusade. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 01:09:07 That's it. So ladies, lady, viewers, um, we will keep you informed, but make sure you're checking your products and make sure you know that you are letting these product, um, that these, that you're letting these product, uh, labels know what you want, right. And what you expect, especially when it comes to your wellness, your care. Um, until the next time,
Speaker 4 01:09:30 Stay well.
